[Talk] [Fwd: [ECTALSR] 9/11 Flag Flying]

[Nick Simicich]

On Fri, 2006-09-01 at 17:15, Terry Richards wrote:
> Nick Simicich wrote:
> 
> >Being a patriot is its own point.  Do you believe that this event, and
> >the scum that did this and the scum that support them should be
> >forgotten? Do you think that some point will be served by shoving our
> >heads into the sand and forgetting the facts surrounding 9/11?  I don't.
> >We did that after the first world trade center attack. Do you think that
> >if we were not in Iraq that terrorists would not be scheming attacks on
> >airplanes?  I think it would not matter what we were doing - they would
> >make up an excuse and attack us.  Our excuse, frankly, was better.
> >
> >  
> >
> 
> After the Pentagon Papers were leaked Americans understood what the
> deal was, why "we" were really in Vietnam.  Likewise, IMHO, Americans
> are wising up in droves to the fact that big money is again playing
> with the public like pawns on a chess board.  Of dead soldiers the
> president says, "He made the sacrifice." when in fact the decision to
> even be in that 'theatre' was not his and he was sacrificed like a
> chess pawn. 

This is the day of the all volunteer army.  The decision to put himself
under orders certainly was his.  Did that particular soldier decide to
go to that theater?  No, but that is not his decision.  It was certainly
morally different back when there was a draft. 

>  That the [verbose and creative ex-Marine expleatives
> omitted] moronic president put the man's life on the line in harm's way
> in the first place, and then has the hubris to say he is justified by
> his death, is as outrageous as outrageous gets.

Um, I hate to ask this, but if soldiers are not to fight, then why are
they?  

> 
> If the impeachment process were started now Dubya's lame duck term in
> office will have expired before it is completed.  I do not believe this
> is a coincidence.

I don't believe that Bush has committed an impeachable offense.

>   George Washington did not turn down the office of
> king, only the Title of Nobility.
> 
> 
> The US got out of Vietnam because big money realized it would never
> turn a profit, not because of protest songs. 

You really don't understand politics, do you.  Please read Clausewitz
"On War".

>  The Gummint has
> publically admitted that "Vietnam was an unjust war" and the perfideous
> and reprehensible reasons over 56,000 soldiers lives were lost, cast on
> the international gaming table like poker chips, are cause for
> prosecution of those who perpetrated those murders, but there is only
> just-us in US government.
> THERE IS NO STATUTE OF LIMITATIONS ON MURDER! 

Good for you. I presume that means that you never vote democratic, since
it was Democrats that started and escalated that war, and a Republican
who pulled out of it?

>  I will NOT forget that
> the innocent lives of my countrymen and women were taken for political
> purposes.

Um, let's try again:  All wars, from the revolutionary war, through the
world wars, the Korean War, Vietnam etc., etc., are for political
purposes.  Your statement is basically, "I don't like war."  Good for
you.  I don't like it either, and well, sometimes the alternative is
worse. 

Israel put up with weeks of attacks by rocket - in fact, an al-Jazerra
report commenting on the idiots at Amnesty International accusing Israel
of war crimes posted the following:


> During the four week war Hezbollah fired 3,900 rockets at Israeli
> towns and cities with the aim of inflicting maximum civilian
> casualties. 
> 
> The Israeli government says that 44 Israeli civilians were killed in
> the bombardments and 1,400 wounded. 
> 
> AI has not issued a report accusing Hezbollah of war crimes.

At what point is someone right in returning fire?  Of course, Hezbollah
was hiding among civilians, which is a war crime.

> "Terrorists take the lives of innocent people for political purposes."
> - GW Bush.  Hello?
> 
> 
> GW Bush was never elected by popular vote either time 

Are you simply living in your own reality?  Do you just look around the
room you are in and decide what the truth is an what it is not depending
on what you want to believe?  The president in the US has NEVER been
elected by popular vote.  There have been several elections where the
victor was not the popular vote winner - and that happened again in the
2000 election.  The margin that Bush won by in 2004 was so wide that
even had Ohio gone the other way, he still would have won the
meaningless popular vote.

> and there were 
> voting irregualrities in Ohio last time that still have yet to be 
> addressed as far as I know.

They have been addressed.  Kerry decided that the people who thought
there were voting irregularities in Ohio were imagining their own
reality and refused to cooperate.  By not fighting them, he addressed
them.  Get it? It is over.  Had there been real irregularities in a
number that might have reversed the election, I believe Kerry would have
fought.  

> Calling dissent un-American is open slander, yet because of his office
> Rumsfield is immune from suit.

Um, let's make something clear:  Just because something is protected
speech and your right as an American to say does not make it something
that a Patriotic American would say.  It is a subtle difference, and
maybe you don't understand it.  But the difference still exists.

I believe that it is un-American to give aid and comfort to our enemies
during wartime.  I  believe that dissent kills soldiers. I believe that
it is your right to dissent, and you have to put up with my free speech
that you don't like, too.   Nothing about my statement is open slander -
because it is all true.  Your speech can give comfort and strength to
the enemy, improve their morale, make them more willing to fight and
make it more likely that soldiers in the field will be killed. 

Do you think that patriotic Americans help enemy soldiers during
wartime?  Is there that much difference between sending them, say, money
or ammunition and in sending them letters of support?

>   Can you say: "aristocracy"?  Ain't
> nothin' new:
> "the insolence of office," - Hamlet
> "The king can do no wrong." - Blackstone
> Office holders are without peer among the populace of the US, which is
> why a cop's word is better than yours in court even though you know
> he's lying.  Study "peerage" and the Magna Charta for insight into
> feudalism and Titles.

Um, since when is a cop an office holder?  Sheriffs are elected, so they
hold office but their deputies do not. I know that their word is worth
more - but that is because juries choose to believe them.  And because
they know how to lie better than the typical punk.

>  The murderous criminals that foisted the Vietnam
> conflict on the world remain above the law.  Ain't nothin' new:
> "There is no flag large enough to cover the shame of killing innocent
> people." - Howard Zinn

Care to explain the difference between, say, Korea and Vietnam?  If you
want to learn the difference, I recommend, once again, "On War" by
Clausewitz.

> IMHO people are just tired of wasting their time.  Butting your head
> against a wall hurts after a while, and though they claim to be
> justified "by the consent of the governed" they certainly do not behave
> like servants of the public's trust; rather, "I'm the decider." ["this
> is for your own good"] is the standard of operational procedure, like
> it or not.  Catch 22.

Again, far as I can tell, no one is being called up who didn't enlist. 
And, well, I know you don't accept the last two elections because the
candidate you like didn't get elected, but, well, the candidate you like
didn't get elected.

And I know you'd like the US to cut and run in Iraq because you don't
have any stomach for war, but, well, I hope we don't, because they will
continue to attack us just as long as they see a gain to be made by it,
and as long as people say, "Gosh, we are taking casualties, time to cut
and run," well, the terrorists will continue to attack our interests. 
Because they have the stomach to take casualties to promote their
interests....which is to put everyone in the world under a theocratic
government.  And that is something that I think is worth fighting to
stop.  People should have the right to choose their own superstition.

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